Archived Message
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Following the current/recent threads "Is my engine running hot" and "Engine would not start", has any RV8 owner had experience of Evans Waterless Engine Coolant? At c.£35 for sufficient Prep Fluid to treat any sized engine plus c.£55 for 5 litres of coolant it is clearly a rather expensive alternative to the usual water/antifreeze mixture! The claims made for it include No Overheating (boiling point 180C), No Corrosion, No (low) Pressure, No Scaling and More BHP. It would, therefore, appear to be ideal for an aluminium engine, especially one with a cooling system which could be considered marginal.
Christopher Allan
20/08/2012 @  22:38
Under topic: RV8
 
Archived Reply(ies) received for this Message
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Tony Lake's recent workshop note clarified several key issues raised in those recent V8BB threads - cooling, what is so “hot” it could be regarded as overheating and the importance of a correctly pressurised cooling system. I felt his note was an authoritative explanation of the subject as I understand he has spent a professional career in engines. You mention "claims made for the waterless coolant include No Overheating (boiling point 180C), No Corrosion, No (low) Pressure, No Scaling and More BHP" and then "it would, therefore, appear to be ideal for an aluminium engine, especially one with a cooling system which could be considered marginal." But what is your understanding of the contribution made by a 180C boiling point and how does the waterless coolant lead to no low pressure and more bhp? Why not try this coolant on your V8 and let us have a detailed report of how observed benefits show it performs as claimed and is value for money?

I feel regular maintenance of the key features of the cooling system as designed by the manufacturer is a wise approach before resorting to alternative coolants. As Tony says in his note "with the V8 engine the term “hot” is defined by the maximum design temperature at which the cooling system will operate reliably." Overheating will occur if the cooling capacity is compromised because something is wrong, the radiator is not full, the pressure cap leaks, the expansion tank coolant level is low (or too high), the water pump is malfunctioning or some coolant leaks occur.
Alan Rennie
21/08/2012 @  17:21
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Alan,
The only information I have on the product is that which is included in Evan's own sales literature.

I quote:
Re BHP:
"Traditional water based coolants regularly cross the thermal boundry that separates efficient nucleate boiling from inefficient critical heat flux. CHF is synonymous with the condition "departure from nucleate boiling". When DNB occurs, a layer of steam bubbles form adjacent to the engine hot spots. Steam dissipates less than 1/30th of the heat that water does, rapidly overheating local metal, causing premature detonation. The high boiling point of Evans coolants prevents DNB, providing more efficient cooling in engine hotspots"

In respect of "No (low) pressure, my meaning was possibly not as clear as it should have been. I meant to say that the product claims to reduce the pressure in the system. Again I quote "... allows your cooling system to run at a lower pressure, reducing the strain on engine components and reducing maintenance costs".

Another of the claimed benefits is that as the product contains no oxygen, it eliminates corrosion. Thus, the product also claims to eliminate the need for regular maintenance of the cooling system including the need to refresh the system ie it claims to last for the life of the engine.

Although I have no reason to dispute these claims, the coolant is not cheap and I posed the question in the hope that somebody may already have taken the plunge! If anybody has, then I would welcome their comments.
Christopher Allan
21/08/2012 @  19:19
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
The question to answer here, Christopher, is whether you've experienced overheating in your RV8 or has anyone else for that matter? All this has, in the main, derived from the MGBV8 (I stand to be corrected of course) and not the RV8 for varying reasons which we've already avidly read about from the coil failure due to heat caused by terminals riveted on and later modified with bolts but going back to 1977 roughly, to the excellent note with regard to the module rearrangement which failed on the Land Rovers but earlier than the actual RV8 production.
As far as I'm aware, the RV8 does not overheat except, I hastily add, when there are air bubbles in the cooling system which have not been thoroughly expelled - see the various threads and notes on this one. I entirely endorse the comments by Alan which concur with my sentiments on this.
Peter Garton
21/08/2012 @  22:03
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Christopher,
A tremendous amount of very technical information by experts has been recently written about overheating and coolant, and, I am sorry to say that a large part of what has been written has gone straight over my head. The term overheating has also come in for a lot of criticism of late and my thoughts on that are more what you are comfortable with, until the amount of heat, becomes mentally uncomfortable.

Let me say that my field of expertise was not in Mechanical Engineering, nor Chemistry, but Law Enforcement, so I cannot speak authoritatively on the subject other than personal experience. People say that there is a difference between the MGB GT V8 and the RV8 with regard to let me just say cooling. That may be the case. I have owned just 1 MG, an MGB GT V8 which I have had for over 36 years. From 1976 to 2006 I used the car in standard form in the UK and in Europe. Rightly or wrongly, I liked the temperature gauge to read up to Normal, but I was strangely happier if it read just below. I understand that the RV8 was designed to show Normal on the gauge even if the temp of the engine was not, however some folks with electrical expertise are able to make the gauge read more accurately.

In the Summer, particularly in Europe, on occasions, I felt uncomfortable with the position of the needle, so put in a 74 Deg C stat which helped. I then started using MGOC's Forlife fluid which is similar to Evans coolant, the differences being that For life has to be changed after 10 years and its red colour changes to indicate head gasket failure and then after the repair it magically changes back. I am on my second batch of forlife fluid after using it for nigh on 16 years. After 10 years at the coolant change, there was no internal contamination and the fluid came out clear, like red wine. It has done what it claimed and I was pleased with it.

In 2006, I moved to Texas where we have regularly temps in the Summer of over 100 deg, and I am back with getting hot issues. This is of course somewhat extreme. So in an attempt to be mentally comfortable, I am again investigating the issue. Thus far I have fitted the Big Bore Thermostat, and an Aluminum Radiator. I am still not there yet and am waiting for the Buick 300/340 short water pump which will fit and it has parabolic impella's.

I am considering changing to the Evans coolant myself as it is more available here. As far as cost is concerned, I think that in the long term with Anti-freeze changes recommended every two years, I think this is the cheaper alternative. You do of course have to evacuate all the Anti-freeze, including the heater, and top up ONLY with this fluid, not water.

In short well worth it, cost wise too, just fill it and forget it. I hope this helps in your decision.
Graham Cornford
21/08/2012 @  23:37
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Alan and Peter,

As it happens, on one occasion I have experienced coolant being expelled from the expansion tank (cause not identified, but this appears to have been a one off). Apart from that, I am not aware of havng encountered any other problems.

As a matter of interest, I was speaking recently to one of the Adder development engineers (although he himself was not directly responsible for the cooling development) who recalled that at the time there were major concerns over this issue which were never fully resolved. This, he said, was the main reason why the temperature gauge circuitry has been designed in such a way that we owners are all able to place total confidence in the readings displayed by the gauge!

Although I related my thread to overheating, the other claimed benefits were of least as much interest to me and could themselves be sufficient reason to invest in the product. For example, is the claimed BHP improvement some minute potential theoretical gain, or somewhat more substantial? Secondly, if there is a near/total elimination of corrosion this in the long term would surely result in less need for maintenance and less cost. If anybody is able to substantiate the claims made for this product then I for one may decide to use it.
Christopher Allan
21/08/2012 @  23:54
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Graham,
Thanks for you comments and observations which I only saw after my latest posting. It's certainly good to hear from somebody who has used, and feels able to recommend, what I assume to be a similar product.
Christopher Allan
22/08/2012 @  00:07
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
As a cheaper alternative you could try Red Line Water Wetter about £12.50 a bottle that has been recommended for the MGF. Available on EBay.
Terry Howell
24/08/2012 @  03:18
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Could you let us know where that recommendation has come from and whether there is a report setting out what independent tests and results they based the recommendation on?
Alan Rennie
24/08/2012 @  04:09
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Alan,
It was mentioned in a member's article in Safety Fast on MGF cooling problems. I will have a look through my SF collection and see if I can locate the exact copy.
Terry Howell
25/08/2012 @  02:53
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
I have to admit that I can't quite follow the reasoning for this additive at all. First of all, this is an American Company with a range of this particular product ranging from cars, trucks, performance track cars and old timers/veterans. If this product is everything it is supposed to be, one must post the inevitable question: why doesn't the automotive industry world wide use it on all their producion vehicles?
I am thus forced to return to the point already put, that if one's car is properly maintained and looked after regarding everything pertaining to the above, the whole thing can easily be classed as a waste of money. These products will not prevent overheating caused by something mechanical such as an airlock, fan belt gone, radiator blocked, waterpump defective etc. etc.
Peter Garton
29/08/2012 @  18:03
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Peter,

Classic car ownership is a very personal thing, as has been mentioned before, that we do what we consider to be the best for our own vehicles, maintaining them in the most appropriate way with the best parts and products, that we can afford. A sideline of this attitude is that it also gives us peace of mind. I have used what I believed to be the better alternative to water/anti-freeze mixture for about 16 years now. I consider my car is well maintained and the use of a waterless coolant helps keeping it that way. With Forlife, coolant, the waterways and radiator appear totally free from contamination and blockages and the fluid also remains clear.

Who knows why the motor industry does not use this as OE. Perhaps in the same way, that it is reported that petroleum companies have bought up some invented fuel saving devices, and then not marketed them, the motor industry realizes that if waterless coolant is used, they may never sell another radiator etc..

Be that as it may, I am happy with a similar product and feel it worthwhile, cost effective and worthy of recommendation and the BB question was about waterless coolants, not vehicle maintanance.

You also refer to an American company as if that is to the products detriment. The one thing that Americans are passionate about, perhaps overly so, is their cars, and how they treat them. There are numerous products here to personalize and improve the basic car. You may also have forgotten that the engine originated from this side of the pond in the first place.

I am sure that I am not the only person happily using a waterless coolant, but I would appear to be the only one to sing it's praises.
Graham Cornford
30/08/2012 @  03:02
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
This is one of those many cases when everyone is right. Just because a product or material has superior properties doesn't mean that it will give better performance in all applications, especially when price v performance is factored in. Our engines were designed for use with conventional water-antifreeze mixtures and provided the cooling system is itself adequately designed and is correctly maintained there should be no problem. There is some debate about the adequacy of the BGT V8 system, especially with modern fuels, but the RV8 design is generally considered to be fine.

Waterless coolants such as those from Evans have superior characteristics to water-antifreeze mixes. The main advantage is that the boiling point is so much higher than the operating point so that there is little chance of local boiling at hot spots, such as around combustion chambers, or at low pressure regions such as water pump impellers. The vapour at local boiling points acts as a thermal barrier and can result in pinking, or at the impeller with lowering of water pump efficacy and cavitation erosion.

In water cooled aviation piston engines (not that common) the use of waterless coolant is becoming more widespread. It is notable that both the FAA (US) and the EESA (European) air certification authorities have recommended the use of waterless coolants in all German Rotax aero engines.

The wide differential between operating and boiling points means that pressurisation is not essential - so the condition or operation of the pressure cap is not critical. A fault in the cooling system that results in loss of pressure will not impair the performance of the cooling system (provided it doesn't also lead to catastrophic loss of coolant).

The fuel economy claims are based on suppression of local boiling so reducing the chance of pinking and also ensuring full water pump efficacy which would also help reduce hot spots. Performance claims are similarly linked since pinking reduces power. Local hot spots are much more likely in very high performance highly stressed engines so waterless coolants find their way into race engines. But the Buick V8 in standard form is famously un-stressed . . . . moreover, electronic engine management (EEM) systems detect pre-ignition and adjust timing accordingly, so no engine damage will occur from pinking. However if the propensity to pink is reduced by better cooling the EEM will re-adjust to a more efficient/higher performance timing.

The high initial price is of waterless coolant is offset by lower maintenance costs, as has been argued above.

As with many other things, the manufacturers' choice is the best price performance consideration for the delivery and warranty cost of the vehicle - not the best full stop. So water-antifreeze is cheap, adequate, readily available, proven and understood and accepted by the consumer and maintainer. And all car manufacturers scrutinise every penny spent. History is littered with companies that made good cars but couldn't make them cheap enough for what they offered. So for the manufactures, where's the advantage in going to a dearer replacement?
Bob Owen
30/08/2012 @  16:10
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Peter Garton asks “Why doesn't the automotive industry worldwide use it (waterless coolant) on all their production vehicles? Bob’s last paragraph provides the answer – it’s the cost.

I’ve used 4-life waterless coolant in my V8 since I built it over ten years ago and I will continue to do so, however, it will find leaks that a traditional water/glycol will not.
Geoff King
30/08/2012 @  17:06
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
I have heard Evans is a Propylene Glycol based coolant. Are there any flammability risks with that material if it were to leak in a hot engine bay?
Alan Rennie
30/08/2012 @  18:23
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Alan,
According to advertising that I have seen, Evans cooling products are totally non-toxic, whereas, anti-freeze if ingested can be fatal. Their Marketing Manager said that you can even drink it, but I wouldn't want to try that. Reference is also made that it is safe for children, and pets in-particular, that can lick up drops of fluid under cars. I would therefore suggest that it isn't flammable either.

I should clarify that I have no connection with any waterless coolant manufacturer, but just feel it is the right thing for me to put in my vehicle. Each to his own. You pays yer money and takes yer choice!
Graham Cornford
30/08/2012 @  23:45
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Graham,
Not sure that toxicity and flammability can be linked . . . alcohol isn't toxic but is flammable (if not too diluted)!
Bob Owen
31/08/2012 @  00:47
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
I don’t know if 4life is toxic or flammable but I’m more concerned about carrying 65 litres of petrol 6” from the back bumper in a country where it appears to be a rule to drive less than a foot from the car in front – and still have a car pass on the wrong side and squeeze into the gap. I love the French.
Geoff King
31/08/2012 @  04:53
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Bob,

I did say that I was no Chemistry Scholar.
I had better get more alcohol!!

Geoff,

I bet it was a 2CV6. The French seem to get them to go like a Formula 1 car. It is also unnerving seeing them come laraping towards you round a corner, leaning over so much that it appears that they will not make it and slide right into you. Ah well, happy days!!
Graham Cornford
31/08/2012 @  10:29
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Graham,

It’s usually something small and diesel but then almost every car here is small and diesel – I even swapped my Jag for a Panda! And pay three times as much as I did in the UK for insurance, strange really because there can’t be many insurance claims, almost every car is dented or scratched. I borrowed a car recently and every panel was damaged, even the roof. They just don’t care.

I digress, back to waterless coolant…
Geoff King
31/08/2012 @  15:19
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Coming back to the important question posed by Alan. Is it flammable or not? I did try not research the chemical make- up of this additive, but it seems to be well hidden. I must add a small addendum, Graham. Of course I did not wish to make any detrimental comments regarding the US manufacturer, I was only stating a fact so that we are aware of the origin of the product.
You raise an interesting point regarding "pinking" Bob. I thought this was usually a problem of the advance/retard adjustment. Thus one would retard the ignition timimg to eliminate that particular problem?
Peter Garton
01/09/2012 @  15:37
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Alan and Peter,

This afternoon with little regard for my personal safety,!! I have conducted a flammability test on Forlife, which is also a waterless coolant that I believe has similar properties to Evans waterless coolants.

It doesn't have that smell, as if it was flammable, like thinners, white Spirit, or meths., etc., so, I placed about a desert spoon full of the fluid in a metal gallon can tin lid, filling it. I have a mini blow lamp that I use for soldering and apprehensively directed the flame onto the liquid. The flame was kept there for 4 minutes plus in all, by which time the lid was far too hot for me to touch with my bare hand, and there was no sign of the liquid igniting or any noticeable evaporation, although I did see a tiny wisp of what looked like steam, or a heat mirage.

Some might say that this test was not conducted under proper laboratory conditions, but the flame which was shielded, is normally hot enough to melt solder, which I know has a comparatively low metal melting point. I would have thought that would be enough to ignite the fluid, if it was in fact flammable.

It is my conclusion therefore, that waterless coolant is not flammable. If there is a better test that may prove otherwise, I am willing to risk my safety again for the benefit of all.
Graham Cornford
03/09/2012 @  08:23
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Wonderful, Graham. It made me really chortle and set me up for the week and was also very well written! Let's hope we can persuade someone to also risk life and limb and set fire to the Evans additive.
Peter Garton
03/09/2012 @  14:45
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Evans coolant is flammamble, it is pretty well 100% propylene glycol which has an auto ignition temp of 397 deg C, the kind of value one would expect to see on the surface of an exhaust manifold at high power outputs. There is an OAT additive package to deal with corrosion.

In the late sixties I witnessed the results of a burst coolant hose on a high temp engine test using 100% glycol, can't recall whether it was ethylene or propylene but the results were catastrophic. A huge fire and massive destruction in the test cell, thankfully no personal injury, but the guy in the test cell control room was severely shocked by the experience.

100% Propylene glycol works as an antifreeze down to -12 degC compared with a 50/50 PG/water solution which goes down to -36 degC. It is also more viscous so coolant flow is reduced, this along with a lower specific heat than water, 0.56 vs 1.0 means that for a given engine power output the coolant temperature rise across the engine is higher. So a new equilibrium condition results which means a higher coolant outlet temp than with a 50/50 mixture. It will not make an engine run any cooler but its claim not to boil is absolutely correct, it also has a lower coefficient of expansion than water so the cooling system will run at a lower pressure than a 50/50 coolant package at the same coolant temps.

The Evans discusion about detonation is interesting, I suspect this is more a function of fuel octane number and ignition timing than any cylinder head temp isssue.

I built a new MGB GT 3.5L engine last year because when I pulled the old one out to replace a slipping clutch I found enough thread damage on exhaust manifold bolt holes and in spark plug holes to make me want to start again from scratch, using Rover Vitesse stuff which resulted in a 9.44:1 c.r. at .020" O/S. With careful use of the throttle and gears to keep the engine rpm in the sweet area at about 2300/2800 rpm it will run all day without pinking on 95, but wind it up on a hill to make the engine work really hard without changing down a gear and it will pink, use 98 octane and all is well. If cylinder head temps were really so marginal then a lot of owners would complain about pinking.

WW2 R-R Merlin Spifire engines were cooled with 100% EG or PG for a while but there were sufficient coolant fires to prompt the use of a 70/30 glycol/water mixture which did not catch fire.

I take the view that snake oil salesmen use the most alarmist jargon to get attention.

I asked Evans UK to comment on all the forgoing about 10 days ago and have not yet received a reply despite a follow up email. I'll keep you posted on any results.
Tony Lake
04/09/2012 @  05:52
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
This is extremely interesting information,Tony. I'm sure members will take heed. Imagine the header tank overflowing on the RV8 which allows the coolant to flow nicely onto the exhaust manifold(pipe) on that side of the engine (the overflow pipe is rather short) or a hose bursting on the older engines. The whole lot could go up in flames, I would assume. This brings me to the thread Graham posted and his tests showed that 'Forlife' is not flammable and is thus a suitable alternative.
Peter Garton
04/09/2012 @  14:32
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
I found data sheets published by De Ville, an Australian company who make Forlife X96 and X33.
X96 contains 1-9% EP and more than 60% water plus an inhibitor package, X33 contains more than 60% water and the same inhibitor package, it does not contain any EP.
Under Flammability the comment is: Not Applicable.
Perhaps Graham could say which spec of Forlife he used.
I couldn't find any reference to a Forlife product that claimed to be an anti-freeze.
If this product were added to regular 50/50 antifreeze/water coolant it would raise the freezing point in the final mixture because of the diluting effect of its high water content.
Tony Lake
04/09/2012 @  18:26
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
Alan and Tony,

I too have been busy on the internet for 2 days now, and have had a reply from Evans in USA to the question 'Is Evans Waterless coolant flammable?"
There reply is posted here.

'The answer to the flammability question is NO it is NOT flammable. However it is considered combustible the difference being you can throw a lit match into a pail of Evans NPG+C Coolant all day long it will not ignite NOT FLAMMABLE. Under the right conditions it will burn COMBUSTIBLE, this requires the coolant is vaporized and exposed to an open flame or hot surface. Wikipedia defines the two as the following, liquids with a flash point less than 60.5 °C (140.9 °F) or 37.8 °C (100.0 °F)—depending upon the standard being applied—are considered flammable, while liquids with a flash point above those temperatures are considered combustible. NPG+C Flash Point is 242.4 F (116.8 C) per MSDS sheet.'

The research I have done confused me in that Evans advertising says using their product, "the operating temp may INCREASE, but the inside engine temp will be more consistent", which seems a strange comment if you are trying to cool things down. Forums caution about this, some say, considerable increase in temp.

What I use is "4life Advanced Engine Coolant/Antifreeze" It is available from the MGOC and Holdens Vintage and Classic, and is used UNDILUTED. The same packaging is also listed elsewhere, as Castrol 4life Advanced Engine Coolant/Antifreeze. Evans say that there product is the only waterless coolant in the world which got me thinking, "Is 4life waterless?" which I assumed that it was, as it has a very similar boiling point, you don't add water, and there is absolutely no contamination or gunge after 16 years. I have emailed Castrol for an answer. I shall also try the MGOC. My simple test seems a bit naff now as 4life may not be flammable, but possibly combustible.

I had almost convinced myself to change to Evans, but I have read a lot of negative comments on forums about it and am nearly back to the "devil you know" etc., as I have been happy with 4life thinking it was waterless.
Graham Cornford
05/09/2012 @  06:19
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
I see that Evans will be at Blenheim. Although the UK arm maybe purely a sales outlet, there's always a chance that they may send a technical person. If so, this would be a good opportunity to ask some questions and maybe even obtain answers to some of the issues raised by members concerning their engine coolant.
Christopher Allan
05/09/2012 @  20:00
 
Evans Waterless Engine Coolant
I have read the above comments with interest and hope that you don't mind us clarifying a few points. Evans is based in Swansea where we manufacture our products for the UK and Europe. There will, therefore, be a technical expert at Blenheim (as at all the UK events we attend - Carfest North this weekend!) who would be delighted to have the opportunity to answer any questions you may have about the product. The flammability issue is a clear concern above and I am sure that following a discussion with our technical expert, this matter(and many others!)can be clarified and put to rest. We have several technical reports available to customers which explain the features of our waterless coolant which you can attain by contacting us on info@evanscooling.uk.com. We apologise to Tony Lake for not responding to his query, but can find no trace of his emails. We'd be grateful if he could confirm the contact information he used and if he resubmits his query, we'll try again. As a final point, there are other questions raised above which, in the interest of not waffling on, I will not cover here but please do not hesitate to contact us if you have a query - we are more than happy to help.
Noel Shapton - Evans Cooling
06/09/2012 @  13:27
 
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